IMPORTANT: changes to the Software Testing Club

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe Strazzere on June 26, 2009 at 6:08pm

It's unfortunate that you aren't able to generate sufficient sustaining revenue via advertisements/sponsorships.

I don't really understand what is meant by "the way some people behave", "people who just don't get it", and "time wasters" - perhaps I just haven't seen this.

I guess by making this more of an "exclusive" club, you'll get to filter out these undesirables. But at the same time, you'll likely miss out on a lot of good people who are looking for a place to contribute, but aren't interested in paying for the privelege.

As a moderator at another (non-pay) site, I understand the difficulties, but I am saddened by this decision nonetheless.

Good luck,
-joe

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Permalink Reply by Linda Wilkinson on June 26, 2009 at 8:15pm

I think it's both a bold move and a differentiator between STC and other venues. I think you, Joe, are are one of the Best People I Know, but I would be even more saddened if STC became another SQAForums. There are many free forums available on the web and all of them experience the same issues over time. I believe it was never Rosie's intention to set this site up as another SQAForums.

I don't think members of a club are paying for the privilege to contribute. I think they're paying for the admin costs collectively to support their own collective efforts. Thus far, we've all been saying Rosie and Phil are the club and that not only do we expect them to do all the work involved with keeping this site up and functioning, but to fund the activities of all of the rest of us. I personally feel kinda leech-like. And getting the funds through advertising is just fine, if Rosie and Phil would like to go out stumping for it, or if they'd like STC to end up like stickyminds - with more ads than content.

Seems to me this is just the first step and all of us, including Rosie and Phil, will have an opportunity to assess whether the changes improve, degrade, or have no impact on the quality of STC. In the meantime, if those of you reading this enjoy STC, five bucks a month is a hot dog with mustard. I can't tell you the last time I paid for some type of QA/QC association, magazine, or whatever and actually got more than I paid for.

I'm in. At quadruple the price, I'd be in.

Change is Good.

- Linda

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Permalink Reply by Ainars Galvans on June 27, 2009 at 6:51am

Rosie - a question: what will be available for non-members? Will they be able to access (read-only) forum, blogs, videos? I'm very much interested for them to be able to read my blog here without registration...

A feedback:
No offense half of items in list of reasons sounds like an excuse to me. However it only demonstrate how hard the decision was to you.
On the other side... what's the difference between a club and a forum? A good club must have a clubhouse and face control (and a membership fee), right? So I support your decision. I'm happy to pay it even for hosting my blog and not allowing span comments to it. I just hope it wouldn't be technically complicated to pay from Latvia.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Crowther on June 27, 2009 at 4:03pm

I already pay my so it makes no difference money wise, I pay a few dollars a month as it's no more than the cost of a coffee and I drink too much of that anyway. I also appreciate that things have to be paid for and you and Phil have day jobs / lives to lead.

If the standard was for everyone to pay I think it would drive newbies away unless there was a really compelling reason for them to pay. That would be content unique to the STC, maybe access to testing gurus that they can't get elsewhere, papers, research, tutorials, interviews, STC conference, etc. or work that was produced in collaboration by STC members that would therefore not exist elsewhere.

Stickyminds.com seem to have done well along these lines however it's a whole bunch of other work for you guys.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Morley on June 27, 2009 at 10:55pm

Hmm. Devil's advocate time... (or really a tester looking at the post?)

What's on offer for the newbie to the site/club/org (the ones that have to start paying from day 1)?

- A certain number of "big" names/VIT's (whatever these mean) will contribute x times per month - exclusive to (or first on) the STC? Mmmmm

- A group of testers creating a forum of ongoing discussions...... (not sure what the business model for this is)

- No adverts on STC

- Moderated discussion/forum/blog

Personally:-

Forums/groups - yes there's a few on STC that raise an interest for me (but I am time constrained..) - there's the occasional wise word, but....

I read several big name blogs (as well as little name and undiscovered-genius blogs) independantly of STC - and when I have a >50% need to add/correct/contribute (this isn't just saying "yes I agree with that") then I contribute, otherwise I move on (even if slightly irked by a post, but not enough to get involved...)

If I didn't subscribe to STC I might still dip in to read some of Ainar's blog posts... :-)

I agree with most of Linda's thoughts about not getting anything for nothing - although there is a quid pro quo here (there's never such a thing as a free lunch) -> the creators/managers of the STC have a very nice addition to their CV now - building up and running a popular meeting place for testers (new & old), which I think has been done superbly - (extra gold stars on the CV if it now launches as a subscription site with a turnover of $0000's)

I am currently ambivalent to the business model - haven't decided one way or the other - yes, the price might be low, but I still weigh up what I would get for the benefit of a subscription - I interact with many different bloggers (via their blogs and personally) so then I have to ask myself what I would get extra from a subscription to STC (as opposed to a read-only view).

- That might be an argument to not have a read-only site - but would the "great-n-the-good" and the "lowly-n-the-wise" want to confine their words exclusively to a subscription-only site?

- On the other side, if I can contribute/discuss elsewhere for free why should I pay here?

Ok, devil's adovate time over...


I'm more than happy to cheer on change but I need a framework (boring as I am) - from what and towards what(?).... (nothing concrete, blue sky ideas or seeds for a brain shower will do.... Currently, I mainly see a mix of problems for the organisers rather than member-benefits in the reasoning to go to subscription-only (part-echo of Joe's questions))

Comments? Discuss? Other? Slag-me-off if you like... ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Heusser on June 30, 2009 at 1:13pm

I assume you'll take credit cards, not just paypal? I'm in.

My only regret is the number of testers in 3rd world countries - India, Pakistan, for whom a $50 USD is simply out of reach. Those people are asking for help; we if we don't help them, they will listen to ... other voices.

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Permalink Reply by Rosie Sherry on June 30, 2009 at 1:25pm

At the moment it is via PayPal (you can also use credit card). We are in the process of reviewing this. Other options include Google Checkout or looking into getting our own merchant account. It won't happen straight away, but hopefully will be sooner rather than later.

I am certainly open to discussions around the topic of 3rd world countries and I am sensitive to it. How can something like that be managed?

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Permalink Reply by Ara Pulido on June 30, 2009 at 1:35pm

I agree that some people might not be able to pay that much, but I disagree about the terminology: India and Pakistan are developing countries, not 3rd world countries.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Heusser on June 30, 2009 at 1:36pm

fair enough. Vietnam? Or is the term 3rd world not PC?

I mean no offense.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Heusser on June 30, 2009 at 5:05pm

I did a little digging, and I don't think the term 3rd world is appropriate in most senses. It does not imply 3rd rate - instead, It came from a time when all the developed nations had picked a 'side', USA (1st world), or Russia (2nd World) - everyone left over was 3rd world.

As slang, it's used to mean 'poor countries.' And, while I mean no stigma or offense, the reality is that to a tester in India, Pakistan, or Vietnam, $50 USD a year is a lot of money.

In that case, I think some sort of scholarship is appropriate, but the candidate would have to do something - give a smaller amount or perhaps answer a test challenge - perhaps both.

There are free forums, like test republic, that cater to the indian tester. Still, I think diversity on STC is valuable and should be encouraged.

I hope my comments come across in the right spirit.

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Permalink Reply by Rahul Jaitley on July 1, 2009 at 7:58am

I agree with Matthew here, the problem is not that can people in developing countries cannot afford the listed price but the fact if you see in terms of percentage of money. If John living in US and Rita living in India share the same lifestyle and can afford the same kind of luxuries, then 5$s costs more to Rita and less to John in percentage of their earnings respective to their currency.

If we take case of manufacturing, like cars were initially manufactured in developed countries and exported to developing countries, they were priced very high due to import duty, transpotation charges etc but now they manufacture cars here so they are priced lower than before. Online these charges do not apply (as per my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong here) so there should be some measure to equate money in terms of currency of the country.

You see if I am getting something out of the club I am also contributing to it right so I feel a lot needs to be incorporated in the club in terms of services before we can consider it worthy enough for paid membership.

I am not insensitive, but am practical at the same time, this club becoming paid with the current set of services will be its loss and some one else's gain because either someone will start a new club on same lines and similar name or people would divert else where if they find better value for same amount or if they find same services for free. You see when money comes in picture, specially in current troubled times everyone would like to explore what best they can purchase for same amount if at all they have to pay. I am a big fan of this club and have got perspective of many intellects by interacting with them on this club. So I can also go on and on in the praise of the club and feel part of the family and justify anything but a true friend is the one who will say things right in your face even if you do not like them because he is saying them because he feels it will benefit you and that he/she values your well being more than what you think about your friend once he/she has said tough things to you, which you might not have liked to listen.

I have gained lot of perspective by joining this club because I got to interact with people from my own domain, however to see it as paid club I would expect a lot more even for 5$ a month.

If all the fingers were of same length maybe our hands would not be that useful, some people engaged in this discussion should reflect on this thought. Also if everyone was rich, world would be very chaotic. So everything has its own importance and place in this world. The same applies to wild life that is why people emphasize on preventing some unpopular animal species because though not popular they have a role to play in the larger picture.

I feel the reason why there is so much software piracy is the fact that the softwares are not priced in percentage of country currency. So people in developing countries resort to piracy, why, because the world requires them to use a particular software in order to work and the price is such that they cannot afford it, so what options remain.

I feel if a software produces 100 units seeing the demand, sells 100 for 10 $ each = earns 1000 $, million pirated copies appear in developing countries for which the software developer does not earn anything why because no one wants to pay 10$ in developing countries for that software, had the vendor priced the software around 4$ for developing countries, he would have got some much more demand and profit, as so many more people would have purchased it in those countries (the same is case is different in case of manufacturing because it involves manufacturing more units of product, whereas in software its only copy on more cds with an new serial number and activation number, if the costs are different for manufacturing physical entities and producing software then why the charging scheme is still the same.

This post has deviated from the main topic of this discussion but I feel it is relevant to some extent.

This post does not mean to offend anybody (my apologies in case anyone feels hurt by it). It is only laying down a perceptive.

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Permalink Reply by Milbert Padayao on July 3, 2009 at 2:18am

I think developing countries are also part of the Thirld world :)

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